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Razgovor:Zapadni Balkan

Zadnji komentar: Croq, prije 6 godina u temi Države "Z. Balkana"
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uredi
Zadnji komentar: prije 6 godina3 komentara3 suradnika u raspravi

Ne stvarajmo probleme gdje ih ne bi trebalo biti. Kolega Seader sad stavlja ovako. [1] Poznato mi je da su Hrvatsku neke interesne skupine stavljale u Zapadni Balkan, no ulaskom u EU neke su se stvari promijenile. Stoga bih molio kolegu Seadera da uvaži i stare i nove činjenice. Kubura (razgovor) 05:08, 21. listopada 2013. (CEST)Odgovor

Sry but u r terribly wrong. Nothing has changed on the fact that croatia is part of the geographical region of western balkans. I also provided sources ([2] and [3]) which prove that. There is enough other sources to find which claims that. The source here given for the information that croatia is not part of western balkans anymore does not clearly prove that croatia is not a part of it anymore, its a personal and wrong own interpretation of the source. That croatia entered the EU changed nothing on the geographical belonging of croatia to wetsren balkan. To assume that here are some interest groups putting their PoV into the article claiming that its part of it is nonsense. regards Seader (razgovor) 15:43, 28. listopada 2013. (CET)Odgovor
Seader, first of all this is Croatian page and official language is Croatian. So please write on Croatian (as I see you are able to understand Croatian language). Pokazujete očito neznanje i miješanje političkih i zemljopisnih pojmova. "Zapadni Balkan" je prije svega politički stvoren pojam, a ne zemljopisni pojam kao što vi tvrdite, jednako kao što je i Europska unija politička tvorevina. Ulaskom Republike Hrvatske u EU došlo je do promjena na geopolitičkom planu i Republika Hrvatska se više ne može smatrati dijelom "Zapadnog Balkana". Morali ste puno puta čuti prilikom proslave ulaska RH u EU kako se "Hrvatska vraća svojim korijenima i tamo gdje je joj odavno mjesto", a tu se ponajprije misli na njezino prirodno okruženje Središnje Europe (pa Hrvatska je gotovo puno tisućljeće pripadala srednjoeuropskim državnim zajednicama). Prema tome, bilo bi poželjno da više ne unosite krive podatke i druge optužujete za tobožnji vandalizam. Pozdrav, Billiboom (razgovor) 16:29, 3. studenog 2013. (CET)
Wishfull thinking but u r wrong with ur conclusion. Croatia is part of western balkan, no matter what ur personal thinking is. You have no source which claims that it was or is not anymore and I have some which claim that it is. See European Economic and Social Commitee, EUISS, CEPI, European Union External Action (EEAS), German Federal Ministry of Education and Research - Western Balkans, IIEA (Institutue of International and European Affairs) - Croatia joins the EU, European Council of Foreign Relations "The periphery of the periphery: The Western Balkans and the Euro crisis.", Austrian Foreign Ministry - Western Balkans and European Energy Security and Related Issues - Busek: Western Balkans should join EU as a block. Please show me sources which claims that croatia is not part of western balkan anymore or ever was. If no serious source is provided which claims that croatia is not part of western balkans anymore then I will change it back in article. regards Seader (razgovor) 08:19, 4. studenog 2013. (CET)

Može li ovo pomoći?

»Parlamentarna skupština Vijeća Europe: Hrvatska ipak nije zapadni Balkan STRASBOURG - Parlamentarna skupština Vijeća Europe izrazila je potporu priključenju zemalja zapadnog Balkana Europskoj Uniji i u usvojenoj rezoluciji pozvala EU da ustraje na politici proširenja. Osnova za raspravu bilo je mišljenje izvjestitelja mađarskog parlamentarca Matyasa Eorsija. U izvješću je naveo da se ono odnosi na Albaniju, BiH, Hrvatsku, Crnu Goru, Srbiju s Kosovom i Makedoniju, ali Hrvatska u usvojenoj rezoluciji ipak na kraju nije spomenuta. Hrvatski predstavnici u Odboru za politička pitanja inzistirali su na stajalištu da zbog položaja Hrvatske i njezina drukčijeg tretiranja u ostalim dokumentima nije primjereno spominjanje Hrvatske u kontekstu zapadnog Balkana. Glasovima većine prijedlog je prihvaćen tako da se u rezoluciji o stanju na Balkanu Hrvatska ne spominje. (Hina)« --Rovoobo Razgovor 10:03, 4. studenog 2013. (CET)
Not really because its only a croatian newspaper article from 2006 which claims that the EU parliament pronounced that croatia is not a part of western balkan, but in the end it is just the personal interpretation of the autor. That is not a claim which comes directly from an EU institution. I have shown more up to date sources from institutions directly of the EU or their main member countries that croatia is part of western balkan. regards Seader (razgovor) 13:35, 4. studenog 2013. (CET)

Seader, pošto ste me uvukli u raspravu, dao sam si truda i analizirao vaše izvore.

  • European Economic and Social Commitee - Ono što vam stalno tvrdim, a vidim da i ostali jednako tvrde, jest to da je od mjeseca srpnja 2013. došlo do geopolitičkih promjena na europskom planu. Ovaj izvor je nebitan jer je vremenski promašen, odnosno tamo stoji već godinama. Najbolji dokaz mojoj tvrdnji jest u tom istom odjeljku [4] gdje se navodi da je Hrvatska još uvijek država kandidat za EU. Pametnome dosta.
  • EUISS - Odlično da ste naveli ovaj izvor! Upravo prva rečenica koja opisuje "Z. Balkan" govori u prilog mojoj tvrdnji. "The countries of the Western Balkans are geographically surrounded by EU member states,...".
  • CEPI - U ovom izvoru se apsolutno ne može nigdje iščitati da Hrvatska pripada "Z. Balkanu" niti se to može razumno zaključiti, naprotiv, govori se odvojeno o Hrvatskoj kao budućoj članici EU i "Z. Balkanu". Hrvatska bi tu trebala imati određenu ulogu pomoći tom području u pristupanju EU, ali ne kao dio toga već kao punopravna članica EU.
  • European Union External Action (EEAS) - Jednak odgovor kao u prvom slučaju; i ovdje se Hrvatsku još uvijek naziva državom kandidatom za EU (outdated source)
  • German Federal Ministry of Education and Research - Western Balkans - Prije svega bih volio da pročitate do kraja izvor koji navodite jer biste tada uočili da se ovdje radi o opisu znanstveno-istraživačkog područja ERA (a ne nekom općeprihvaćenom stajalištu) koje je u proljeće 2004. (!) organiziralo projekte znanstvene suradnje na području "Z. Balkana" ograničenog trajanja. To se najbolje vidi iz ovih završnih rečenica "The project ran for a period of five years and ended in August 2009.", "A total of 23 JERPs are still receiving funding until September 2012.",... Prema tome, nikako se iz ovoga ne može zaključiti da se Hrvatsku danas smatra "Z. Balkanom".
  • Austrian Foreign Ministry - Western Balkans - Slično kao i u prethodnom odgovoru, ovdje se govori o prijelaznom razdoblju stabiliziranja, pripremanja i ulaska pojedine države u EU. Također, može se vidjeti kako izvor duže vrijeme nije ažuriran (posljednja godina koja se spominje je 2010.) i stoga je upitno smatra li se Hrvatsku i dalje tim dijelom Europe.
  • IIEA (Institutue of International and European Affairs) - Croatia joins the EU - Ako ste pročitali tekst nigdje niste mogli uočiti, a samim time ne možete ni tvrditi, da Hrvatska pripada "Z. Balkanu", čak štoviše, više se potkrepljuje moja tvrdnja. Uostalom, ovaj se izvor ne može koristiti kao pouzdan "reliable source" jer se radi o subjektivnom tekstu. Dokaz tome jest rečenica "...The views expressed in the article are the sole responsibility of the author".
  • European Council of Foreign Relations "The periphery of the periphery: The Western Balkans and the Euro crisis." - Opet se u tekstu malo toga može izvući što bi išlo u prilog vašoj tvrdnji. Hrvatska je spomenuta odvojeno kao zemlja koja ulazi u EU, dok se kao ključni pojmovi u ovom članku o "Z. Balkanu" navode izrijekom države Crna Gora, Srbija, BiH i Kosovo. Jedino gosp. Dimitri Bechev spominje Hrvatsku u tom kontekstu, međutim, tekst datira prije ulaska Hrvatske u EU pa je stoga upitno jesu li i danas takvi stavovi.
  • European Energy Security and Related Issues - Busek: Western Balkans should join EU as a block - Ovaj izvor navodi tekst iz 2008. gdje se još govori kako bi "Z. Balkan" trebao ući kao cjelina u EU (!) i o graničnom sporu između između Slovenije i Hrvatske, a vremena i političko raspoloženje su se odonda stubokom promijenila. Pored toga, opet se ne može sa sigurnošću da Hrvatska tamo pripada.
Nije mi cilj obezvrjeđivati izvore, ali velika većina danas jednostavno ne odgovara stvarnosti. Pogotovo ako znamo da je glavna odlika Wikipedije njezina nestalnost, prilagodljivost vremenu i zato kažemo da je ona "živa" enciklopedija. Stoga, u ovom slučaju, nije bitna kolikoća izvora, već njihova kakvoća.
Iznijet ću vam i svoje argumente, kao što ste me i tražili. Pored ovog izvora (Institut EU za sigurnosne studije) -[5]- koji jasno određuje države ovog područja i koji je ažuriran, što se može vidjeti iz teksta, još imamo ove izvore [6] (također je Hrvatska isključena), [7] (National Geographic Society), [8] (gdje se iz priložene najnovije tablice vidi da se Hrvatska ne smatra "Z. Balkanom"), zatim [9], [10] (ovdje se vrlo jasno vide države koje tvore "Zapadni Balkan", dok je istovremeno Hrvatska potpuno odvojena u države članice EU) i zaključit ću s izvorom sa službene stranice Europske komisije [11] gdje se ne može jasnije vidjeti iz priložene karte da se Hrvatsku ne smatra dijelom "Zapadnog Balkana". Ovi svi autentični izvori koji dolaze od renomiranih institucija, pored ostalih, jasno upućuju da Republika Hrvatska danas ne predstavlja dio "Zapadnog Balkana" (Croatia is not a part of Western Balkans).
Ispričavam se čitateljima na podužem tekstu, ali drugog načina za kvalitetan odgovor nije bilo. Lijepi pozdrav, Billiboom (razgovor) 22:02, 4. studenog 2013. (CET)
Sry but I dont agree.
  • Your critic for my first source is that it is outdated and thatfore not relevant because of the newer political changes. I dont agree. You did not show me any up to date seources which claim that croatia is not part of wetsren balkan anymore either, You just showed me several years old sources that its not part of it and I show u better sources which claim it is/was. You can argument as long as you want with the political changes but as long as you dont have an up to date source which claims that croatia is now no part of western balkans anymore because it joined the EU this PoV is just wishfull thinking.
  • You say that my second source proves your point with the sentence: "The countries of the Western Balkans are geographically surrounded by EU member states,..". You have to finish reading the source. Croatia is mentiones often enough in this source in the context of western balkan states ("In 2000, the Feira European Council acknowledged that the Western Balkan countries were ‘potential candidates’ for EU membership. In June 2003, the EU-Western Balkans summit resulted in the Thessaloniki Declaration, in which the EU declared unequivocally that the ‘future of the Balkans is within the European Union’. On 1 July 2013, Croatia became the 28th member state of the European Union, and the prospect of EU membership remains open to the official candidate countries..." and other places it is mentioned in that source which make it clear that its part of western balkans and that it is the forst country of western balkan which joined the EU). In this source is not written what you want to read out of it. Where in this source is written that croatia is now not a part of western balkans anymore because it joined the EU? Please show me the information in the source. Thats your personal interpretation and thinking and against wikipedia rules Wikipedia:No original research.
  • If you dont want to read it then of cource it is possible to see that source in your described way. But you also can see it in the context of the other western balkan countries that it is the first of them to join the EU.
  • Outdated does not matter because you also have not provided any up to date source which claims that croatia is not part of it anymore because it joined the EU. This source just prooves that croatia was part of western balkan before like your old sources try to proof that it was not.
  • This source is also a proof that it was seen a part of wester balkan. You have to proof that it is not anymore with an officiall source.
  • Same answer like before. Show me an up to date source which proves that it is not anymore part of it.
  • Ok then dont count this source anymore.
  • Also like before: If it is outdated you have to proof it with an up to date officiall source or it is just your own personal thinking and interpretation of the political changes.
  • Simillar to before answers.
Ok now I am looking at your sources because you talk about quality:
  1. I told u in my answer again how to use that source. You have to read this source as a whole na dnot just that one sentence. To say that western balkans is surrounded by EU member states does not clearly pronounce that croatia is not part of it anymore, because it does not contradict. Western balkan states are still surrounded by EU members as is croatia surrounded by EU member states. It does not claim that no EU member state is or cant be part of western balkan.
  2. Sry but your second source "RRPP from Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft" is not an officiall source by any intitution of the EU or any member states.
  3. Your third source ("National Geographic") is also not an officiall source by any intitution of the EU or any member states and is therefore inferior to officiall sources.
  4. At this source you have to read at "About WBIF" :"The Western Balkans Investment Framework (WBIF) supports socio-economic development and EU accession across the Western Balkans through the provision of finance and technical assistance for strategic investments, particularly in infrastructure, energy efficiency and private sector development." Croatia as an EU member state does not need any support in EU accession and therefore also no investments from WBIF and is of course not listed in the table. But at the same source I found THIS here: WBIF - WBIF Workshop on PPP Institutional Structures:"The aim of the Workshop is to present the Project and to give a brief overview of the EPEC work on the PPP Institutional Structures across the EPEC Membership. It is expected that all Western Balkan countries present a status of the PPP related institutions and problems they are facing in institutional and legal PPP framework. Participants of the Workshop will be representatives of the relevant Public Sector Authorities from 7 countries (Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, FYRoM, Kosovo*, Montenegro and Serbia).". In this source please also have a look at this: WBIF Stakeholders where croatia is listed with all the other western balkan states. So this officiall EU source (WBIF) actually proves my point that croatia is/was part of western balkans and not yours that it is not.
  5. This is actually not an EU or EU member source it is an UN source, but still it allows the conclusion that croatis is not part of western balkans, compared to the several sources I have brought up which claim that it is part of it.
  6. Cant say much about that. It defines the western balkan states as "candidate countries" for the EU. But still only one EU source against several others.
  7. Here u dont have to look only at the map. Look at the written text:"The EU is the Western Balkans' largest trading partner, accounting for about two thirds of the region's total trade. As a whole the region's share of overall EU trade was 1,4% in 2012, however individual countries' shares were very low - Croatia 0,5%, Serbia 0,4%, FYR Macedonia 0,2%, Bosnia and Herzegovina 0,2%, Albania 0,1%, Montenegro 0,0% and Kosovo 0,0%.". So also after this officiall EU source croatia is/was part of western balkans.
We have seen many different officiall sources now from institutions of EU or their member states. Except one EU and one UN source which allows the conclusion that it is not all others claim croatia to has been part of western balkans. There is no good source yet given which claims that the entrance of croatia into the EU has changed its affiliation to western balkan. Its only one definition which allows the conclusion which is without any officiall confirmatory source only a personal interpratation and PoV. If you know a source which proves clearly your point with the changing political situation and affiliation then please show me. Till now I dont see the information that it is not part of it anymore as not proved and only been PoV. MfG Seader (razgovor) 03:02, 5. studenog 2013. (CET)

Seader, vaša toliko voljena fraza "wishful thinking" koju često pripisujete drugima, upravo najbolje opisuje Vas! Ne mogu drukčije komentirati vaše odgovore u kojima se ne raspoznaju razlike između političkih i zemljopisnih pojmova, odbijanje očiglednih dokaza kao što su jasne rečenice i zemljovidi, uporno ignoriranje najbitnijih stvari, a to su činjenica o vremenu i političkom trenutku itd. Vi mislite kako će te što većim brojem zastarjelih izvora (prihvatili vi to ili ne) nadjačati brojčano manje, ali činjenično mnogo snažnije izvore (dokaze). Stalno govorite, prilikom mog osporavanja vaših izvora, da vam nisam naveo nijedan ažuriran izvor. Naravno da jesam, i to skupno na kraju mog odgovora. A onda moje izvore, naravno, tumačite svojevoljno ili kako bi vi rekli "wishful thinking". I pored svega toga, na kraju ste morali priznati da postoje službeni izvori koji danas najjasnije kažu da Hrvatska ne pripada "Z. Balkanu". I kao zadnje što vam ostaje jest galamiti oko količine vaših izvora naspram mojih "navodnih" dva. Ali i da je samo jedan jedini, on je toliko jak jer poništava sve vaše upravo zbog vremenskog djelovanja. Vidi se da niste pravničke struke jer bi tada znali da je pored materijalnog polja primjene (sadržaja, same biti stvari) još bitnije vremensko polje primjene. Primjerice, kao da ste pred mene došli s cijelom torbom zakona i pravilnika, ali koji su izvan snage (nevažeći) i s njima želite riješiti spor, dok ja u ruci imam samo jedan zakon, ali onaj važeći. Nadam se da su vam neke stvari jasnije. Billiboom (razgovor) 17:55, 5. studenog 2013. (CET)

Sry but keep dreaming. I nullified your sources here because they do not proof your point. You could only provide here one EU and one UN source which allow the conclusion that croatia is not part of western Balkan, but none of your sources states and proves your point that croatia is not part of western balkans anymore because it joined the EU. Till now you are doing original research ("The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not advanced by the sources.") which you are not supposed to do. As long as u cant provide a source which states that croatia is not part of western balkan anymore because it joined the EU it keeps being your PoV and for that is no space in this article. Till now you failed to show one single source which clearly prooves your point and because of that the article needs to be changed back. If I am wrong then please proove it by providing a source which claims your argumentation which none of the yet given sources does. regards Seader (razgovor) 01:18, 6. studenog 2013. (CET)
Seader..neverending nightmare ?--Croq (razgovor) 00:16, 26. siječnja 2018. (CET)Odgovor

Postupak promjene Ustava

uredi

Ovaj dio je činjenično netočan:

Radi sprječavanja udruživanja Republike Hrvatske u ovakve ekonomsko-političke asocijacije, i sprječavanja zloporabe moći koju bi mogle imati moguće buduće odnarođene hrvatske vladajuće elite. hrvatski je predsjednik Franjo Tuđman uveo nove odredbe u Ustav Republike Hrvatske kojima se zabranjuje udruživanje u ovakve asocijacije

Ustav Republike Hrvatske ne mijenja Predsjednik (pa ni prije 2001).— Prethodni nepotpisani komentar napisao/napisala je Hatzivelkos (razgovor • doprinosi) 10:26, 4. studenog 2013.‎

Države "Z. Balkana"

uredi
Zadnji komentar: prije 6 godina4 komentara3 suradnika u raspravi

Ovdje ću staviti brojne izvore koji jasno i nedvosmisleno kazuju koje se sve zemlje smatraju dijelom ovog geopolitičkog pojma nametnutog od strane Europske komisije 90-ih godina prošlog stoljeća. Navode se: European Investment Bank, European Commission,Official document of European Commission, European Commission - Western Balkans, Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, Institute for Security Studies of EU, WB Investment Fund, Western balkans environment, Westminster Foundation for Democracy, WFD 2013, RRPP-westernbalkans, National Geographic, Parliaments of WB, Jacques Delors Institute, EU Commission 2012, Foreign Affairs - COWEB, EU Commission 2013, Foreign Affairs - COWEB, Conflict Prevention Partnership (EU), EBRD I KfW fond, Japan International Cooperation Agency. Iz svega navedenih izvora nije teško zaključiti o kojim se državama radi. Stoga, države "Z. Balkan" jesu: Albanija, Bosna i Hercegovina, Crna Gora, Kosovo, Makedonija i Srbija.

Nadam se da će budući urednici stranice imati u vidu ove činjenice. Pozdrav, Billiboom (razgovor) 23:03, 13. studenog 2013. (CET)

Billiboom you should really not change that article anymore before this discussion is not finished.
I reverted your changes because you again acted against Wikipedia:No original research and ignore all my given officiall EU sources and did a wrong interpretation of EU sources and gave inferioir to EU sources non EU sources into the article.
It is interesting to watch how you ignore and delete all my above and in the article shown officiall EU sources which claim that croatia was at least part of western balkans till 2012 with using every (also non officiall EU institution) sources you can find which claims that it was not part of western balkan at that time. You still fail in showing us one source which claims and proofs your initial argumentation that croatia is not part of western balkans anymore because it joined the EU.
Now to your sources. None of them is claiming that croatia left the western balkans at the moment it joined the EU. Some allow the interpretation but most of your sources just say that croatia was not part of western balkans even before 2013. But also most of these shown sources are not officiall sources from EU-institutions and some of the few EU-sources even proof my point here that it at least was till it joined the EU:
  • The ICG source is a source from 2005 and does not proof your argumentation with the political change. It only says that croatia was not part of western balkan at that time already. The problem here is: The Internationan Crisis Group is not an officiall EU institution. Its an NGO which has at best an consulting function for the western and EU states.
  • This Homepage made from the state of ireland is speaking here of " the EU’s relations with the Western Balkans region" and then the countries with which the EU has relations are being counted. The thing here is: Because croatia is already part of the EU it does not need to be counted because this would mean EU has relations to itself. But still this source does not proof your argumentation with the political change of croatia joining the EU changed its belonging to the geographical region of western balkan.
  • This Homepage made from the state of Denmark for their EU presidency is also like the irish one not counting croatia into western balkans.
  • Your third source Think Global - Act European is published by Notre Europe a non government independent thinktank from france. It is not an officiall EU source from any EU institutions and as far I see its from 2011 a time when croatia still was not part of the EU. But I have shown enough officiall EU instituion sources also from that time which claim that croatia is/was part of western balkans.
  • Your Network of Parliamentry Comitees for Economy and Finance of Western Balkan Countries source is not an EU institution source either and if u look at the "Member List" u show as source for your point can also find the "National Assembly of the Republic of Srpska" which is not even a state. Because of that the reliability of this source in this question is very doubtfull to me.
  • About your Nathional Geographic wource I dont need to say anything I guess.
  • Your RRPP is an swizz programme by the University of Fribourg. So a non officiall EU instution or any EU member state source either.
  • Your Westminster Foundation for Democracy source is linking with their Western Balkan member list to the previously discussed source of "Network of Parliamentry Comitees for Economy and Finance of Western Balkan Countries" which reliability in this question seems doubtfull because they list even non states like Republika Srpska.
  • Western Balkans Environmental Programme is also not an source from any EU institution or any EU member state.
  • It is funny that u use now this WBIF EU source after u used in an earlier discussion about croatia and western balkan THIS WBIF SOURCE for your argumentation. I then showed you that WBIF actually proofes my point:At this source you have to read at "About WBIF" :"The Western Balkans Investment Framework (WBIF) supports socio-economic development and EU accession across the Western Balkans through the provision of finance and technical assistance for strategic investments, particularly in infrastructure, energy efficiency and private sector development." Croatia as an EU member state does not need any support in EU accession and therefore also no investments from WBIF and is of course not listed in the table. But at the same source I found THIS here: WBIF - WBIF Workshop on PPP Institutional Structures:"The aim of the Workshop is to present the Project and to give a brief overview of the EPEC work on the PPP Institutional Structures across the EPEC Membership. It is expected that all Western Balkan countries present a status of the PPP related institutions and problems they are facing in institutional and legal PPP framework. Participants of the Workshop will be representatives of the relevant Public Sector Authorities from 7 countries (Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, FYRoM, Kosovo*, Montenegro and Serbia).". In this source please also have a look at this: WBIF Stakeholders where croatia is listed with all the other western balkan states. Also you have missed this in the WBIF as source:"...Croatia has five WBIF-IPF Techncial Assistance project. ... Croatia became a European Union Member State on 1st July 2013. Since this date Croatia is no longer eligible for WBIF support. However, Croatia will see though exisitng WBIF projects and follow closely WBIF's activites. " So this officiall EU source (WBIF) actually proves my point that croatia is/was part of western balkans and not yours that it is not.
  • For your European Union Institute for Security Studies I already told you: Yes it is written:"The countries of the Western Balkans are geographically surrounded by EU member states,..". But you have to finish reading the source. Croatia is mentioned often enough in this source in the context of western balkan states ("In 2000, the Feira European Council acknowledged that the Western Balkan countries were ‘potential candidates’ for EU membership. In June 2003, the EU-Western Balkans summit resulted in the Thessaloniki Declaration, in which the EU declared unequivocally that the ‘future of the Balkans is within the European Union’. On 1 July 2013, Croatia became the 28th member state of the European Union, and the prospect of EU membership remains open to the official candidate countries..." and other places it is mentioned in that source which make it clear that its part of western balkans and that it is the first country of western balkan which joined the EU). In this source is not written what you want to read out of it. Where in this source is written that croatia is now not a part of western balkans anymore because it joined the EU? Please show me the information in the source. Thats your personal interpretation and thinking and against wikipedia rules Wikipedia:No original research.
  • Why you give this OECD source I dont really understand because it actually speaks of croatia in the context of western balkan states. If you want to say "look at page number 2 where the western balkan countries are listed" then there is written: ...It covers seven economies – Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Kosovo under UNSCR 1244/99.... This is no proof for your point because it is talking about seven economies but counts only six. If you keep reading that document you will see that the seventh economy is croatia. Also this OECD document proofs my point that OECD is viewinf croatia as part of western balkans.
  • Your European Commission says: "The EU is the Western Balkans' largest trading partner, accounting for about two thirds of the region's total trade. As a whole the region's share of overall EU trade was 1,4% in 2012, however individual countries' shares were very low - Croatia 0,5%, Serbia 0,4%, FYR Macedonia 0,2%, Bosnia and Herzegovina 0,2%, Albania 0,1%, Montenegro 0,0% and Kosovo 0,0%." So also after this officiall EU source croatia is/was at least till 2012 part of western balkans and it does not say anything about any political change which lead to croatia not being part of western balkans anymore.
  • This officiall EU Commission source actualla does not proof your point at all but mine. Croatia is mentioned in the context of western balkan states and "the first country to complete the Stabilisation and Association Process.".
  • Your third EU Commission] source I am not sure what u want here to proof. The title of the document is "EU enlargement: priorities for 2014". Croatia already joined the EU 2013 so of course you are not going to find croatia in this document. Please what kind of wierd argumentation.
  • This is actually the only officiall source you gave yet which claims the western balkan states as "candidate countries" for the EU. But still only one EU source against several others I gave yet.
Ok if we start now to show sources which proofs that croatia was at least till it joined the EU part of western balkan and which dont show that something has changed because it joined the EU or speak of croatia in the context of western balkans:
Officiall sources from EU-Institutions or Member states:
European Economic and Social Commitee, European Union Institute for Security Studies, European Union External Action, German Federal Ministry of Education and Research - Western Balkans, Austrian Foreign Ministry - Western Balkans, Western Balkans Investment Framework (WBIF), European Commission - Trade - Western Balkans, European Commission - Press Release
Literature sources:
  • (German); Tado Juric; Westbalkan-Erweiterung der EU - Europäisierungsprozess in Bosnien und Herzegowina, Serbien und Kroatien – ein Vergleich, Schriften zur Europapolitik, Band 21, Hamburg 2013, ISBN 978-3-8300-7377-2 (Translation of Title: Western Balkan enlargement of the EU - Europeanisation process in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia and Croatia - a comparison)
  • (German):Editors:Prof.Dr.Gudrun Peschutter, Prof.Dr. Hans-Eggert Reimers, Prof.Dr.Michael Schleicher; Leopold Maurer, Osterweiterung der Europäischen Union; Stuttgart 2004; ISBN 3-8282-0279-9 ; page 135
  • (German): Van Meurs, Wim: Den Balkan integrieren. Die europäische Perspektive der Region nach 2004. In: Aus Politik und Zeitgeschichte, Frankfurt 2003, page 37
  • Sanjay Kathuria;Western Balkan Integration and the EU: An Agenda for Trade and Growth; The World Bank, Washington 2008, ISBN: 978-0-8213-7472-6
  • Florian Trauner; The Europeanisation of the Western Balkans - EU justice and home affairs in Croatia and Macedonia; Manchester University Press; 2011; ISBN: 978-0-7190-8345-7
  • Editor: Vera Stojarová,Peter Emerson ; Jakub Sedo , Party Politics in the Western Balkans; New York; 2010; ISBN13 978-0-415-55099 ; page 73
  • SME Policy Index: Western Balkans and Turkey 2012: Progress in the implementation of the small business act for europe; OECD & European Union; 2012; ISBN 978-92-79-26076-6
  • Energy in the Western Balkans: the path to reform and reconstruction; International Energy Agency, United Nations Development Programme; 2008
  • Robert Hayden , From Yugoslavia to the Western Balkans: Studies of a European Disunion, 1991 - 2011; BRILL, Balkan Studies Library; ISBN 978-90-04-24190-9
Others:
It is clear that croatia was part of the western balkans at least till it joined the EU. For the claim that it is not part of the western balkans anymore because croatia joined the EU we till now dont have been showed a source. The aboved shown sources (many not even from officiall EU-Institutions) by Billiboom dont proof that. In fact many of his sources are before croatia joined the EU and claim that it was not part of western balkan even before that happening. I habe shown a enough sources from officiall EU-Institutions or EU-Member states, from literature and other sources like World Bank, United Nations, several think tanks and others which proof that it was at least till 2013. As long as there is not a reliable source shown which clearly proofs Billibooms argumentation that because of the change in political situation (croatia joined EU) croatia is no part of western balkans anymore this change in the article is against WP:no original research and POV. Regards Seader (razgovor) 06:33, 14. studenog 2013. (CET)

[12] The European Investment Bank in the Western Balkans. Factsheet 2013. Page 1/3.
"The EIB is the largest international financier in the Western Balkans 1 and has been active in the region since 1977. Over the past 10 years, the Bank has financed projects totalling EUR 6.6bn."
Footnote1: Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), Kosovo (under UNSCR 1244), Montenegro and Serbia.
Croatia is no longer mentioned there. Kubura (razgovor) 06:22, 16. listopada 2014. (CEST)Odgovor

Same here. [13] [14] Kubura (razgovor) 06:32, 16. listopada 2014. (CEST)Odgovor

This sources are already showed and discussed above. Kind regards Seader (razgovor) 07:15, 22. listopada 2014. (CEST)Odgovor

Source:Brain..vacuum.--Croq (razgovor) 00:18, 26. siječnja 2018. (CET)Odgovor

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