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Razgovor sa suradnikom:Vituzzu

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Vituzzu, dobro došli na Wikipediju na hrvatskom jeziku, započetu 16. veljače 2003. godine – slobodnu enciklopediju!

Pozivamo vas na sudjelovanje u rastu ove svima dostupne enciklopedije na hrvatskom standardnom jeziku.


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Svoje doprinose na člancima ne potpisujte, dok komentare na pripadajućim stranicama za razgovor, suradničkim stranicama i Kafiću molimo potpisujte tako što ćete pritisnuti gumbić Button sig.png ili Vector toolbar signature button.png na alatnoj vrpci ili napisati 4 tilde (tilda = 4x istovremeno tipke AltGr + tipka s brojem 1), što kod uređivanja izgleda ovako ~~~~.
Vlastitu suradničku stranicu (onu koja se zove "Suradnik:vaše ime") možete uređivati po svojoj želji u skladu s pravilima uređivanja suradničke stranice (npr. asketski ili šminkerski).


Molimo Vas, ne stavljajte zaštićene radove bez dopuštenja! Nemojte izravno kopirati sadržaje s drugih web stranica ako nemate izričito dopuštenje. Ako imate dopuštenje, napišite to na stranici za razgovor ili jednostavno dodajte ovdje. No, obvezno to napravite prije nego započnete s pisanjem preuzetog teksta. Molimo uočite da se svi doprinosi Wikipediji smatraju dualno licencirani, pod Creative Commons Imenovanje-Dijeli pod istim uvjetima 3.0 i GFDL licencijom. Ako ne želite da se vaše pisanje nemilosrdno uređuje i slobodno raspačava, nemojte ga ovamo slati. Također nam obećavate da ćete ono što ćete napisati sami napisati, ili ćete to prepisati iz nečeg što je u javnom vlasništvu ili pod sličnom slobodnom licencijom.


If you don't speak Croatian: This is the welcome message sent to new users of hr.wikipedia

Još jednom, dobro došli! --Roberta F. 12:09, 3. kolovoza 2011. (CEST)

Globalni uklonitelji i administratoriUredi

Vituzzu, please do not use your sysop or rollback tools on hr:wiki. Regards :-)) --Roberta F. 12:09, 3. kolovoza 2011. (CEST)

Same story [1]. Kubura (razgovor) 00:28, 17. prosinca 2011. (CET)

I should have been more precise, you're right. Thank You for Your help, but our colleagues were there to correct that. Salud, Kubura (razgovor) 00:52, 17. prosinca 2011. (CET)

Re: Wheel war - MayaSimFanUredi

Hi. Zeljko blocked Argo Navis with this explanation on his talk page ([2])

Due to frequent insulting of this project and calling out other admins and wikipedia users (see here - Argo participated in the discussion that was also mentioned on meta about possible misuse of checkuser tools - Misuse of checkuser privileges), and disruption of work on wikipedia and causing disturbance you are blocked for two years. I'm sorry but I have to protect other admins and users from these attacks so that everyone else could do what they are here to do. I see that you have no will to work and you are here only to cause disturbance and chase away other users.

In my opinion, Argo was only participating in the discussion and wanted his question answered (if with some exclamation points and bold text) and also, during that time, he did a lot of recent changes patroling so he wasn't all that inactive in article namespace. So, I was the first to unblock him. My explanation on Zeljko's talk page for unblocking was [3]:

Zeljko, please don't block users just because you don't agree with their comments on the Village Pump/voting/wherever. A similar thing almost happened with [user] Suradnik50 a couple of weeks ago [Suradnik50 voted to desysop SpeedyGonsales, Kubura and Zeljko and later used VisualEditor to correct some spelling mistakes but in the process he unintentionally deleted an infobox. Zeljko almost blocked him because Suradnik50 voted to remove Croatian admins from Wikipedia and he might be an agent provocateur who is here to vandalise and to get blocked so that he'll be able to say he was blocked for no reason. Thankfully, I stopped it. Suradnik50 later confirmed it was an unintentional mistake. [4] ], and unfortunately, it's been happening too often recently. Argo also works in main namespace, and to observers these blocks can look like nothing but silencing. I'll unblock Argo. Regards.

He later responded to me with:

You have no business unblocking him. He'll stay blocked for attacks, obstruction of work and insults. and I wish that I and everyone are able to work uninterrupted and without attacks and insults from anyone.

Yet, I believe Argo didn't deserve a block (and especially not a 2 year block). Entire discussion about misuse of CU tools was tense, nobody answered the question and, as Argo put it, the messenger was killed. --MayaSimFan 17:03, 15. prosinca 2013. (CET)

In my opinion, Argo was only participating in the discussion - that is blatant lie. Argo called 10+ admins kaljuža - that means dirt, filth. If that is just participation, what further to say? SpeedyGonsales 20:38, 15. prosinca 2013. (CET)
First of all, I want to thank Zeljko for unblocking me. He is nice guy and I really enjoy seeing what he does. I even helped him with his lists of species as unregistered user while I was blocked by him. But, I still think it would be best for the project if he stays away from resolving any conflicts. One way or another.
Now about "kaljuža". Kaljuža is not "mud". It's quagmire. See here. If you go to wikt:en:quagmire, You will find explanation "difficult situation, inextricable position". I'm sure You heard phrase "American Quagmire in Afghanistan" many times in the news. That was my association - tiresome stalemate where everythig is stuck in its place. And that is exactly what I said in the discussion: Problem ove wikipedije nisu hrpica članaka o NDH, nego grupa od 10 i više suradnika, uglavnom admina, sličnog svjetonazora i/ili povezanih prijateljskim vezama, koji se međusobno štite pod svaku cijenu, a na štetu svih koji im se nađu na putu. Dok se ta kaljuža ne počisti, ova wikipedija neće postati ono što bi trebala biti.. Translation: The problem of this wikipedia is not a few WW2 related articles, but the group of 10 or more users, mostly admins, with similar worldview and/or connected with frendship ties, that protect each other at any cost, at the expense of all who happen to be on their way. Until this quagmire [meaning: the way of doing things cabal-style] is cleanud up, this wikipedia will not be what it should be.
Soon after that, SpeedyGonsales reacted saying Ovo što je Argo napisao je osobni napad na preko 40 suradnika ovoga projekta (What Argo said is personal attach on over 40 users). This was assumption of bad faith, so I reacted by exlaining that, by quagmire, I meant situation, not people, but SG insisted on assuming bad faith. I must say this is not exception, but modus operandi. Whenever he wants to get rif of someone, he cherrypicks his words, takes them out of context and insist on bad faith ad nauseaum.
Son after this, I got blocked by Zeljko for 2 years, and after a few days, I made a local version of RFC (on hr wiki, it's for admins only). There, I got another round of insults and assumption of bad faith from admin MaGa who attacked me, but also reverted all the comments I tried to made as unregistered user, although I proved to him it's me. I was in the situation where any admin could write anything against me on this RFC, but I had no way to reputing it. This is not an exception, it's how thing are done here regularly when someone is blocked and asks for second opinion.
Although I felt I did nothing wrong (at least not on purose), this morning, I decided to appologise to everyone who felt insulted by my quagire comment, so I wrote ...ispričavam svim suradnicima koji su se našli uvrijeđenim mojim komentar o kaljuži u koju se ovaj projekt pretvorio (I'm apologising to all users who felt insulted by my commet on quagmire that this project turned into). I expected this issue will be put to rest and then I saw this new development. I also saw SpeedyGonsales harshly attacking MayaSimFan after her comment here and I felt I have to defend my coleage that already suffered to many unjustified attacks by SpeedyGonsales and his cabal group od users, mostly admins, who protect each other at any cost, regardless of situation or arguments. --Argo Navis (razgovor) 22:39, 15. prosinca 2013. (CET)
MayaSimFan, Suradnik50 has a dossier of incorrect behaviour.[5] His talkpage is full of admins' and patrollers' explanations, notifications, remarks, warning on incorrect translations. He showed poor knowledge of ortography (intentional or not), a lot of untranslated text. Sometimes it looked like as if he was inserting software translations. Be you understand to me what alone wanted say? Anyway, admins applied "assume good faith" a lot of times, so Suradnik50 was not sanctioned at all, or the sanctions were much milder, even in the cases when he had to be (sharply) sanctioned.
Argo Navis, the word "cabal" may sound rude. Still, it's the question who is the cabal that is making problems? This project has been calm for years. And then the media lynch started. And then a group ("cabal") of malcontent users misused that opportunity. Kubura (razgovor) 04:15, 16. prosinca 2013. (CET)

ArgoUredi

Unblocked, argo apologizes (ovim se putem ispričavam svim suradnicima koji su se našli uvrijeđenim mojim komentar o kaljuži https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Zahtjev_za_mi%C5%A1ljenje_administratora/Argo_Navis_vs_Zeljko_i_drugi); I apologize to all colleagues who were offended by my comment about the dirt (hr wiki-users). IMO, everything will be okay. So he promised--Zeljko (razgovor) 17:54, 15. prosinca 2013. (CET)

likewise we have a policy in disputes strictly use the rules of Wikipedia

the process of resolving disputes between users The request for an opinion administrator, login conflict between administrators

In the extreme case, if the conflict can not be solved by the above rules, the conflicting parties may be required to create a committee of administrators and users in number, which can be arranged. Having made the decision this committee is adjourned. The same rules apply as with AO. https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Arbitra%C5%BEni_odbor/Dopunski_izbori#Prijedlog_za_glasanje_-_ukidanje_AO-a Thx --Zeljko (razgovor) 19:54, 15. prosinca 2013. (CET)

Re: Wheel war Sokac121Uredi

Hi. When I saw that Zeljko blocked Argo Navis for two years, I looked at the explanation. In it, I immediately noticed irregularities because Zeljko wrote to Argo Navis and said he isn't working anything, so on Zeljko's Talk page I provided him with a link to patrollog currentMonth in which it is evident that Argo Navis had 445 patrol edits this month, while Zeljko had only 3. After my explanation, I unblocked Argo Navis, but Zeljko did not reply to me but just blocked him again. The following day I unblocked Argo Navis again and gave support to administrators MayaSimFan, Saxum and Mario Žamić, yet Zeljko just gave me a short reply: "You cannot unblock a user I blocked", so I did not want to participate in the argument anymore. A few days later I repeated here [6] my opinion, namely that the user was unfairly blocked because an administrator does not like him and thins different than him.--Šokac 21:53, 15. prosinca 2013. (CET)

Argo called 10+ admins kaljuža - that means dirt, filth. If you missed that - OK, please check, but that was reason for block so you in your right mind could not miss that. If you see that as communication normal for wiki, what that says about you, Šokac? SpeedyGonsales 22:16, 15. prosinca 2013. (CET)
Where was Argo Navis all these years? Why did he appeared right now with patrols? Just to forge "how much he works a lot"? Where was he before? To be a good worker, one has to work whole the time. Not only in moments when the boss is watching.
Sokac121, when unblocking, did You asked the other admins for the opinion? [7]. This is just stated opinion. [8]
Zeljko is the far most productive user on hr.wiki. He is the nr. 1 article creator on hr.wiki. Until today, in the mainspace, he created 9710 articles [9] (redirects excluded).
New articles created in the mainspace:
Mario Žamić 730 [10]
MayaSimFan 228 [11]
Sokac121 4416 [12] (with lots of errors in grammar and ortography)
Saxum 797 [13]
Zeljko is the most popular user on hr.wiki, ever since he appeared on this project. He is also very respected, because he is the one of pioneers of hr.wiki, regularly present on the project, and the doyen. He is like the eldest brother, father, uncle, grandfather. He earned the title of wise Indian chief with the reason. Kubura (razgovor) 04:57, 16. prosinca 2013. (CET)
Kubura, This is almost completelly true (except "the most popular", since 40+ users voted to desysop him), but also completelly irrelevant. If I could describe Zeljko in as few words as possible, it would be "Dr User and Mr Admin". The same goes to You, Kubura. --Argo Navis (razgovor) 17:37, 16. prosinca 2013. (CET)

Re: Wheel War - MarioUredi

Hello Vituzzu. I unblocked user Argo Navis (the wheel war you are asking about) because I strongly believe the block was unjustified and made in order to silence the user, who was asking the "awkward" questions about the checkuser SpeedyGonsales omissions. Argo Navis has for years been used as a bogeyman to frighten "the righteous users" on hr.wiki, and when the chance arose, he was blocked without a proper explanation (Zeljko citing "inactivity" is no reason for a block, let alone a 2-year one). Later user SpeedyGonsales (also the passionary collector of positions at croatian wikipedia, he holds all possible now, I think) added that Argo Navis was blocked for using the word "kaljuža" (swamp) describing the project. Well, over the course of the years I've seen much stronger words being used on this project without even a warning. Probably Argo Navis' choice of words wasn't the best. However, he is not a common vandal, but an user with tens of thousands of constructive edits. The real reason in my opinion is a lingering animosity towards Argo Navis from some admins, namely SpeedyGonsales and Roberta F. They usually don't want to get their hands dirty, and instead are sending admin Zeljko to do the dirty work. I must admit Zeljko is a valuable user to this project, but a mediocre admin at best. You must understand that at croatian wikipedia admins are impeccable, regarded as holy cows, and the best possible example for a Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi proverb. Any attempt to criticise any of these admins is usually met with deterrence and the user is sometimes described as "vandal", "brute", associated with a "media lynch", even "non-patriotic". Edit counting is also a popular way to discredit users.

If you have any additional questions, feel free to ask. --Mario Žamić (razgovor) 09:53, 16. prosinca 2013. (CET)

imputation, this is not true. With this case Speedy and Roberta have nothing. --Zeljko (razgovor) 11:50, 16. prosinca 2013. (CET)
Suradnik Argo Navis (Ante Perković, Sombrero, Matkovic, Rotanev i još tko zna koliko suradničkih imena i IP-ova) jedini je uzrok višegodišnje podjele na wikipediji na hrvatskom jeziku. Njegova nedavna isprika je samo farsa i provokacija što pokazuju i njegovi bahati odgovori svima koji nisu na njegovoj strani (primjer je odgovor Roberti F.) a u cilju izazivanja daljnjih sukoba kako bi sebe mogao prikazati kao žrtvu. Njegovo trenutno ponašanje samo dokazuje kako je Željko bio potpuno u pravu kada ga je blokirao. Stranica na koju se pozivate za ovu diskusiju u stvari najbolje opisuje Arga i njegove namjere.--D tom  12:23, 16. prosinca 2013. (CET)
Salve, Vituzzu. Mi scusi perche sto discutando qui. Ma qui miei messaggi sono qui per spiegarti piu, per dare l'altra dimensione delle cose.
Mario Žamić wrote here [14] "Edit counting is also a popular way to discredit users".
It was he (Mario Žamić) who said that the editcount discredits those users, not me. It is his conclusion.
Anyway, that very same section was started with the message (written by Sokac121) that contains "patrol counting" as a way to give a certain picture about the opponents;[15]. The picture is partial and incomplete.
My message was a reaction on that message that gave partial picture. My message is the comparison for giving the other dimension of things: to give the picture of users that commented here, as well as the user being commented, Zeljko. Kubura (razgovor) 22:32, 17. prosinca 2013. (CET)

Deleted section with defamationUredi

Recently some anonymous users having no other reason to complain, write complains regarding alleged behavior of some other users on Facebook. Such behavior (personal attacks with alleged off-wiki actitivity) is clearly marked as irregular, but how to stop vandals? SpeedyGonsales 18:00, 16. prosinca 2013. (CET)

I'm not used to listen without understanding, so don't care, I think I can state among reasonable statements and gibberish. Speaking frankly since my talkpage has been deleted and then restored the first thing I'll have a look at will be this deleted version, I'm a pretty curious guy :
I didn't answer fastly in order to have an assay of how things works near here. Now I have to examine the results of my "experiment"! --Vituzzu (razgovor) 21:59, 16. prosinca 2013. (CET)
Vrati se natrag na suradničku stranicu »Vituzzu«.